In my discussion on another post, I brought up my personal translation of the Atheist/Rationalist Litany of Tarski into Catholic terms. That brought up an idea in my head for a new prayer for Catholics and Atheists to pray together. I call it the Chaplet of Tarski Fatima, based on the major influences of this prayer; and it is especially suitable for situations where you have both Atheist and Catholic family members, and a Catholic family member dies. I suggest praying it along with the Rosary, and it is based on the beads of the Rosary. I want no credit for this, and so I am formatting the rest of this blog posting in such a way to encourage cut and paste sharing.
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The Chaplet of Tarski Fatima
The Catholics in the group should start. On the Crucifix, one Nicene Creed, preferably the new 2011 translation if you're doing it in English.
On the first Our Father Bead, the Catholics should pray the Fatima Prayer: "O my Jesus, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy." The Atheists should respond "If I am shown evidence of the supernatural, let me not claim that it is not evidence."
On the next three beads, all should pray together, the Catholic Litany of Tarski: "Lord, help me to believe that which is Truth, to not believe that which isn't truth, and do not let me be attached to those beliefs I may not want.", for the repose of the souls of the dead.
On the next Our Father Bead, repeat the Fatima Prayer/Evidence Pledge.
The first decade should be dedicated to discussing truth in charity. Repeat a decade of the Catholic Litany of Tarski, ending with the Fatima Prayer/Evidence Pledge.
The second decade should be dedicated to the Truth statement of St. Ambrose: "Man does not find the Truth, the Truth finds Man". Repeat a decade of the Catholic Litany of Tarski, ending with the Fatima Prayer/Evidence Pledge.
The third decade should be dedicated to Clarke's Law: Magic is just technology we don't understand yet. Repeat a decade of the Catholic Litany of Tarski, ending with the Fatima Prayer/Evidence Pledge.
The Fourth Decade should be dedicated to the Catholic version of how to judge a miracle- by its effects, not by its causes. Repeat a decade of the Catholic Litany of Tarski, ending with the Fatima Prayer/Evidence Pledge.
The Fifth Decade should be dedicated to the Rational Life- the foundation of all rights, of all government, and of science itself. Repeat a decade of the Catholic Litany of Tarski, ending with the Fatima Prayer/Evidence Pledge.
Catholics: End with one Our Father, for the repose of the dearly departed. Atheists, end with one *atheist version* of the Litany of Tarski, reformulated to whatever fact is most troubling to your mind at this point (the following is only an example):
If Proposition A is true,
I desire to believe that Proposition A is true;
If Proposition A is not true,
I desire to believe that Proposition A is not true;
Let me not become attached to beliefs I may not want.
-------Update
Based on my discussion with Bill S. in the comments, I have removed the earlier version of the Catholic Tarski Interpretation, and have substituted one that is closer to the original.
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15 comments:
I don't think that's going to fly with either atheists or Catholics. Why would atheists be inclined to recite anything over and over again while counting using a rosary? Atheists have no interest in finding common ground with Catholics. As one caught in the middle, I just let Catholics say their prayers and keep quiet. Who wants to get on the bad side of Catholics? And who wants to try to find prayers that work for everyone. Prayers have no purpose to atheists. We just let people who want to say them at ceremonies say them. I went to a fourth degree ceremony for some council members. I just kept my mouth shut while everyone prayed. What else could I do. It meant so much to them.
so you are saying human relationships mean nothing to Atheists?
This is the funny part- if you are so sure prayer is powerless then there is no reason not to find common ground in prayer. Only if God exists and prayer is powerful, do you have reason to stay silent in your fear, lest maybe you start believing again.
"so you are saying human relationships mean nothing to Atheists?"
Why do you jump to that conclusion? I was responding to your suggestion of how Catholics and atheists could pray together. Just because atheists wouldn't want to doesn't mean they don't value human relationships.
Prayer is like mild self hypnosis. If it helps, fine. It's not for me.
Praying together, in the case of the death of a loved one, is one way to work through grief. Refraining indicates you don't care about the grief of the rest of the family.
Now besides that- why should you be afraid of mild self-hypnosis, if you are certain that you are right? Or are you afraid to find out you are wrong, and thus, by praying any version of the Litany of Tarski, you may discover you are wrong?
"Refraining indicates you don't care about the grief of the rest of the family."
You think that refraining from praying is indicative of not caring about the grieving family? You can't just tell them that you are sorry for their loss. You have to recite an Our Father or Hail Mary to show that you truly care?
"You have to recite an Our Father or Hail Mary to show that you truly care?"
Yes. Just as if you are a secular Jew, you still sit shiva during a family death.
If atheism is correct, there is nothing to fear in this; but of course, if the Catholics want to be a bit more caring about their ATHEIST family members- perhaps the Litany of Tarski can be a good common ground, because it is theistically neutral.
Can we drop the Litany of Tarski idea? It's just an attempt to harass atheists into reciting a prayer that is of no value. You have an antagonistic attitude toward atheists and you seem intent on goading us into participating in useless religious observances. I go along with it for the sake of my wife, but I can't see trying to impose prayer on self proclaimed atheists. And it's not that we are afraid that believers might be right. There is zero chance of that happening.
Did you read the Less Wrong article? Tarski was an atheist. The idea comes not from the Catholic side of things, but from the rationalist side. Can you describe your objection to rationalism without referring to the Catholicism?
Yes. It is a basic expression of the desire to believe what is true and not become attached to beliefs that one doesn't desire (whatever that means). I get it.
Then what, specifically, is the problem in trying to train your brain to recognize truth- and using that to attempt to defeat superstition in your family as well?
If there is a common cause between Catholics and Atheists, then surely it is the fight against *fundamentalism* and *superstition*, right?
Plus, in the case of the grieving process- recognizing the truth- whichever truth- is important. Either acknowledging the death has occurred and your loved one's body is rotting in the ground, or acknowledging the existence of the soul and praying for your loved one to get to heaven- is indeed valuable for working through the grieving process right here on earth.
Mild brainwashing is useful when the goal is to let go and let reality take over.
Thus the combination of the Litany of Tarski (which teaches us to accept what is true) and the Mercy Prayer of Fatima (which teaches us that God's mercy is infinite- and CAN be infinitely applied, even to a non-believer).
Can you imagine a soul more in need of mercy- more *deserving* of mercy- than one who committed suicide out of despair? I can't.
In fact, if I were you, I'd link to this page in your will. If God doesn't exist- it won't do you any harm and will bring your family and friends great comfort to say a novena of these for you. If God does exist- the pleas on your behalf just might turn hell into purgatory for you.
On second thought, don't link to this page. Instead, copy and paste after the dashed line, and put it in your final directives.
As it says in the posting, this is released into the public domain. I don't even want acknowledgment for it.
PS. We said one of the more simplified form, just the Litany of Tarski and the Fatima prayer, at Monday night Knights meeting for the repose of the souls of those killed in Oklahoma's tornado. Luckily, our friend Rebecca was working at the time, and was evacuated to the basement of the capitol building to watch on TV as the tornado tore through her neighborhood.
"If God doesn't exist- it won't do you any harm and will bring your family and friends great comfort to say a novena of these for you. If God does exist- the pleas on your behalf just might turn hell into purgatory for you"
Ted, God does not exist and I won't give in to nonsense thinking that I must just in case God does exist. If he does exist and is intent on punishing me for not believing in him then he is very petty and I see no need to grovel before him.
Then for you, God does not exist and there is no harm in saying the Litany of Tarski.
Since He does not exist, how can it possibly do you any harm to grovel before something that does not exist?
I really should post my picture here of me sacrificing my brother at the MaryHill Stonehenge....right before we fought a fire together to save a farmer's pasture.
Is this how brothers and Knights should behave?
Stonehenge picture or is THIS how brothers and Knights should behave (a few minutes later)Lead story in the Columbian Newsletter Supplement. Same two guys, two different religions- one we don't believe in, one we do.
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